Guilloche!

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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

I think there's too much detail in the center for it to work, at least in mystery aluminum, just levels it off instead of leaving a pattern. These are intended to see what the machine and I can do, may have limited out the 90 degree bit.  I might try a new 20 degree just for fun, see if it does any better.  I've found somebody that's tried the $50US eBay diamond drag bit on acrylic with good looking results, but am strongly resisting the urge to buy one until I've figured out the V bit.  I'd like to try some boolean operations with line art images and guilloche too, like mask off a leaf shaped area from a pattern and see how that goes.  I spent a little time playing with a free program called ZebraTrace, turns pictures into guilloche like patterns, but it relies on cutting deeper to get wider traces and this material is too thin.  Since it's double sided taped to the spoilboard it'll have to wait until I finish up this workpiece first, plus it's another distraction from my primary mission.

Interesting you should mention staining, enameling guilloche is/was popular and trying some transparent enamel is on my todo list.  Have to get some good ones first.

Tried poking around with Vexx's extra buttons, the hole patterns and celtic knots, guess they aren't implemented yet.

Kirk
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ArtF
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by ArtF »

Kirk:

>>hole patterns and celtic knots

  Celtic works, but you need to have a vector(s) selected as a group for it to work.
(Draw a box, select edit and convert it to a group. Then press celtic fill).

Not sure what hole patterns your speaking of...

Art
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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Using join fixed celtic knots, should have rewatched the video.  What I was calling hole patterns is really grid fill, got that working as well.  User error.

Kirk

Edit: changed "not using" to "using"
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Did the test pattern again with a 20 degree flat v bit, 0.1mm doc, 100mm/minute.  While the detail is better I don't like the effect as well, lines vs chiseled cuts, and it left a burred edge.  Caved in and ordered a 90 degree diamond drag bit and collet set off eBay, will see how that works out, but for now the 90 two fluter wins.

Nice and sunny, light breeze.  Winds and rain will supposedly start sometime tonight from the National Hurricane Center.  Brought the kayaks and trash cans into the garage, will continue watching track and forecast to decide if it's worth hauling the lanai furniture inside.

Kirk
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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

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I don't know if this is possible (pencil and t square guy), but I'm trying to take a simple guilloche pattern and use it to fill a random downloaded celtic knot dxf, remove all the guilloche pattern except within the knot which is composed of what look to be closed vectors.  I was hoping that intersect would work but no joy.  I grouped each object after importing or creating them.  Weld (really need to rewatch the videos) turns the imported dxf into a bunch of circles.  I also found an interesting undo feature, if I give up by clicking new after several failed undone attempts the old objects stay on the screen but are no longer selectable or deletable.  I've attached a .vexx file

FWIW, I couldn't make Carbide Create do it either.  My goal is to take a vector object and only have guilloche patterns inside it.  For example, there's old engravings where only the interior of a leaf (or dragon) in my book are engraved and I was wondering if there was a way do to something similar.  A more advanced technique would be having different patterns inside and outside the leaf (dragon, flower, etc) but one thing at a time

Kirk
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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Barleycorn!  Aka Grains d'Orge. The first one is a (simulated) 96 lobe rosette, the second is a 32 lobe.  I adapted the recipe from my Guilloche book.  Giggle "barleycorn guilloche" and you can see how the experts do it, in gold on expensive watch dials.

Creating them is fairly simple, if tedious.  Set the inner and outer elliptical order to the desired number of lobes, and set both elliptical coefficients all the way right (you could use a higher number but for my 25mm size the smallest, i.e. most defined lobes, worked best) and set both phase sliders to 0 (not completely necessary, but if left at 100 you can't read the numbers easily).  Set the maximum radius as desired, fill type to line, density to one.  Using the outband and inband radius place the outer wiggly circle where desired.  Click next.  Enter a bigger max radius, then adjust the inband radius so the new line is just inside the first.  Use the phase controls so the lobes touch, i.e. the valleys on the outside line match the peaks on the inside line, both should be the same. You will need to tweak the inband (or outband, either works) radius, I zoomed in on one lobe and stayed their, panning the display when necessary.  Happy?  Click next, readjust the max radius (you need the outband outside the new line), set phase to zero, tweak inband radius (the left and right arrow keys are really handy) so the valley and peak just touch.  Repeat, varying the phase from 0 to what works, each time.  Hey, it's easier than clicking the rose engine pawl 25 times.

The 96 lobe, my first try, looks good under magnification but is too small for these aging eyes (cataract surgery after the knee heals up...).  The 32 lobe pattern is just a little too coarse, should have either used a higher elliptical coefficient or more lobes since it left some uncut aluminum in the outer rings (I think there's 16 loops, something like that) but it otherwise looks pretty good magnified.  I also attached the printed version from my book (all rights belong to the author, of course), so you can see how it's laid out.

90 degree two flute endmill, 25mm diameter, 0.1mm doc at 200mm/minute.  Output as dxf and cammed with carbide create.  And don't save your vexx file as .dxf, by the time I realized why Carbide Create didn't like it I'd already restarted from scratch and overwritten the file.

Kirk
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Hessel Oosten
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Hessel Oosten »

Hi Kirk,

Super !+!

I struggled a little bit tonight with your VERY nice pattern, but could not succeed in repeating it.

How did you set the number of lobes (96 and 32 in this case) ?

Please would you be so kind to attach the saved Vexx file here, to see easier what you are doing ?

Thanks,

Hessel
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Hessel

I'm sort of working along with a book on Guilloche and Rose Engines and trying to duplicate some of the simpler patterns, of course no guarantee that this is the right or best way since I'm really using the wizard in unintended ways.

I used the Elliptical Order box to set the number of lobes, and slid the coefficient slider all the way to the right to get the "gently undulating" curve.  I've been setting both the inner and outer envelopes the same for now, but real rose engines used a variety of shapes.  Search for Bill Oombs for a rose engine simulator, trying that out is on my list for the future.  I set phase% to zero, only because it makes it easier to read and match up the numbers on successive traces.

Fill density is set to 1, Fill type to line.

The maximum radius will need to be adjusted to be greater than where you want the trace.  Use the Outband and Inband Radius sliders (if you click on them you can use the keyboard arrow keys for fine adjustments) to get the size where you want it.  When the outer ring looks right (it's actually the middle one in the screenshot) then click  next.

I closed Vexx before the second screenshot so some values might be a little different.  The Maximum Radius will change, set it back to your first value or something that gets the outer envelope outside your work, in this example I made it a little larger.  You'll do this every time, different values for max radius might make the slidering easier as the pattern gets smaller.

Use the InBand Radius to get the second trace close to the first one, then use the Phase slider to align the high spots so they touch.  You need to set both the inner and outer phase the same (or maybe not, if you want a different effect).  Then zoom in and get the two bumps almost touching, and adjust the phase if necessary.  When it looks good then click next and repeat, alternating a phase of zero and the value that lines them up.  After a couple passes it goes fairly fast.  Repeat until you get the desired effect or get tired of repeating :)

Hope that helps!  After rewatching the Vexx videos I'm going to try the celtic knot cutout again, maybe with the snip tool and reworking the knot dxf to make sure all the shapes are closed.  We'll see.  My inspiration is attached (this one is from a swiss watch company via a link on cnccookbook.com) but I'll never get that good.  No special reason for the celtic knot other than I like them and had this particular dxf sitting around.  Why try something easy when there's something much harder sitting around :)

The diamond dragon (aka drag bit) is on it's way, a couple 120 degree bits from drillman1 on eBay are here (shipped and at the post office half an hour after ordering Saturday afternoon on a US holiday weekend, highly recommend him if you eBay in the states), and I used a christmas gift card I'd forgotten about to order some 1.5"/38mm 20g brass "stamping" disks. I expect my problems are more operator than material, but brass is the traditional practice material.  I don't think I'll be trying gold, silver, or platinum or ordering a $100K US MADE Rose Engine...

Kirk

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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

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MADE is the brand of the Rose Engine, after the 4 maker's first initials.&nbsp; After I reread that it looked like US made, and while it is that's not helpful.&nbsp; Don't think Mrs. Moose is up to that anytime soon, but it's a beautiful machine that would look great in our living room, better than the new table and sofas <ducks>

Kirk
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Re: Guilloche!

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Am getting a bit frustrated.&nbsp; I created a guilloche pattern, grouped it, imported the dxf knot, grouped that, then put the knot under one side of the guilloche.&nbsp; No joy with the snipping tool, didn't see any effect from it.&nbsp; I then drew a simple box around the knot.&nbsp; Snip will see the lines in the knot, and delete them, but still will not touch any of the loops in the guilloche pattern.&nbsp; Also don't understand what subtract and intersect do, no matter which order I select the two groups, or even the guilloche and the square, can't seem to make either do anything.&nbsp; I was thinking they were boolean operations, but maybe not.

Minor nit, when I imported the dxf knot it changed the size of the workspace (the knot was 200x200 or so) and I couldn't find an option to change it back.&nbsp; Also at the scale I'm working at (25mm x 25mm) the grid is too coarse and I couldn't find a way to change the grid spacing.

Kirk
Hessel Oosten
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Hessel Oosten »

Thanks Kirk !

Will try it a.s.a.p. but first I have to go on vacation for a week&nbsp; (order of the Mrs. here.. ;)

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Guilloche!

Post by BMeyers »

Mooselake wrote: Hessel

I'm sort of working along with a book on Guilloche and Rose Engines and trying to duplicate some of the simpler patterns, of course no guarantee that this is the right or best way since I'm really using the wizard in unintended ways.

I used the Elliptical Order box to set the number of lobes, and slid the coefficient slider all the way to the right to get the "gently undulating" curve.&nbsp; I've been setting both the inner and outer envelopes the same for now, but real rose engines used a variety of shapes.&nbsp; Search for Bill Oombs for a rose engine simulator, trying that out is on my list for the future.&nbsp; I set phase% to zero, only because it makes it easier to read and match up the numbers on successive traces.

Fill density is set to 1, Fill type to line.

The maximum radius will need to be adjusted to be greater than where you want the trace.&nbsp; Use the Outband and Inband Radius sliders (if you click on them you can use the keyboard arrow keys for fine adjustments) to get the size where you want it.&nbsp; When the outer ring looks right (it's actually the middle one in the screenshot) then click&nbsp; next.

I closed Vexx before the second screenshot so some values might be a little different.&nbsp; The Maximum Radius will change, set it back to your first value or something that gets the outer envelope outside your work, in this example I made it a little larger.&nbsp; You'll do this every time, different values for max radius might make the slidering easier as the pattern gets smaller.

Use the InBand Radius to get the second trace close to the first one, then use the Phase slider to align the high spots so they touch.&nbsp; You need to set both the inner and outer phase the same (or maybe not, if you want a different effect).&nbsp; Then zoom in and get the two bumps almost touching, and adjust the phase if necessary.&nbsp; When it looks good then click next and repeat, alternating a phase of zero and the value that lines them up.&nbsp; After a couple passes it goes fairly fast.&nbsp; Repeat until you get the desired effect or get tired of repeating :)

Hope that helps!&nbsp; After rewatching the Vexx videos I'm going to try the celtic knot cutout again, maybe with the snip tool and reworking the knot dxf to make sure all the shapes are closed.&nbsp; We'll see.&nbsp; My inspiration is attached (this one is from a swiss watch company via a link on cnccookbook.com) but I'll never get that good.&nbsp; No special reason for the celtic knot other than I like them and had this particular dxf sitting around.&nbsp; Why try something easy when there's something much harder sitting around :)

The diamond dragon (aka drag bit) is on it's way, a couple 120 degree bits from drillman1 on eBay are here (shipped and at the post office half an hour after ordering Saturday afternoon on a US holiday weekend, highly recommend him if you eBay in the states), and I used a christmas gift card I'd forgotten about to order some 1.5"/38mm 20g brass "stamping" disks. I expect my problems are more operator than material, but brass is the traditional practice material.&nbsp; I don't think I'll be trying gold, silver, or platinum or ordering a $100K US MADE Rose Engine...

Kirk

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wonderful design.
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by ArtF »

Thats awesome..

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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Incredible, but absolutely not mine, it's from a swiss watch company and done on a real rose engine.&nbsp; I wish I could do something like that.&nbsp; It's the dial on a probably $10K US watch, no price provided since if you have to ask...

The diamond drag bit came today, and with no preparation except changing the collet and thinking half the bit extension was enough (worked out to 5mm "cut depth", really spring compression), at 200mm/min both plunge and feed rate did the attached photo; took about 15 minutes.&nbsp; It's the same 25mm flourished test pattern I've now cut at 0.05 and 0.1mm doc and both 90 and 20 degree vbits.&nbsp; I could hear little thumps where it crossed other lines, but couldn't feel (it's so slow, and non-spinning, I gently held a finger on the cutter)&nbsp; them, and it doesn't appear to have lost any steps.&nbsp; First time the flourishes and center detail came out.&nbsp; Pretty good for $50 US, I think, plus it'll engrave on plastic, steel including stainless, and glass from other user's reports.&nbsp; Tried to convince Mrs. Moose that since it was a diamond she could share it as her upcoming birthday present, which worked about as well as you may have expected.

I'm going to try the 96 lobe barleycorn for grins, then see what lobe count (no idea what the official term is) will give a nice effect.&nbsp;

As always the photo doesn't do it justice, just a 100Weq LED desk lamp at an angle and a cell phone. The original changes as you change your viewing angle, and has a better jeweled effect than my vbit cuts.

Spent a few hours being net beaned and figured out how to run Bill Oombs' open source rose engine simulator on my W10 laptop.&nbsp; It's written in Java, compile your own for non-fruit computers, and a great visualization (makes me want to look closer at NetBeans) of how the cut will end up.&nbsp; I played with barleycorn until hauled off to dinner; it allows setting phase and position on every cut.&nbsp; While mostly intended for ornamental turning he does provide a couple PDFs describing how to do a spreadsheet to get the proper manually entered values for a couple popular guilloche patterns.&nbsp; It will provide g code, but for a unique machine Mr. Oombs built that uses (iirc) X, Z, and C and way different cutters (they call them cutting frames, I think what he's calling a drill is a conventional spindle).&nbsp; If I can resurrect my 2000-2002 Java memories I might take a look at his g code generation and see if I can make it produce X-Y-Z code.

There seems to be several techniques of creating guilloche patterns.&nbsp; There's the spirograph emulators, Art's very nice unique style, rose engines with rosettes of unlimited shapes, and geometric chucks (which can also be mounted on a rose engine) which seem to be closely related to spirograph patterns.&nbsp; T. S. Bazley's Index to the Geometric Chuck, published in 1875 where he used one to generate pen and ink drawings of a very large number of patterns and numbered them.&nbsp; Alan Battersby in the UK did a geometric chuck simulator that would reproduce Bazley patterns but his site has gone dark and archive.org doesn't seem to have captured the downloads.&nbsp; I have it up north, but not currently accessible.

I did say it was a rabbit hole...

Kirk
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Mooselake
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Re: Guilloche!

Post by Mooselake »

Today's effort, with the diamond drag at 300mm/minute and the usual 25mm square.&nbsp; Read that bigger routers do these at 4000mm/minute, might try one at the machine's 1000mm/minute max speed, and see what happens.&nbsp; Plan to keep the mouse over the non-physical (and really a black square) red mushroom button just in case.

This is the aforementioned celtic knot dxf with a line circular array on top, started with a line from center straight up, then did a 100 line circular array; could have done more.&nbsp; Much panning, zooming, and snipping later all the lines outside the knot were removed and this resulted.&nbsp; These lines would snip where the guilloche patterns would not.

I did get into a bit of an issue with the 3D rotate (the other CAD program uses middle click to pan, Vexx uses a right click), and couldn't figure out how to get back to upright and flat, so got as close as I could and just lived with it.

Got the $7US tool setter installed, reminding me how much I dislike crimping dupont connector pins, didn't help that the insulation was bigger than the pins were designed for. In retrospect I should have stripped it off and had both crimps go to bare copper.&nbsp; Took about 10 pins to get two that worked, more than normal, maybe need to do more than 2 a year to get better.&nbsp; Now need to play around with grbl commands to use it properly since bCNC's tool set tab is set up for one in a fixed position and drove the (conductive, diamond won't work) bit into the top of the cheap setter and then tried to move it around.

Despite being Amazon Prime the brass disks might be here Monday.&nbsp; The "ground shipped to offer such a low price" tool setter came yesterday.&nbsp; Ordered Tuesday; the hurricane might have slowed things down.&nbsp; Non-prime pool algaecide ordered the day after came before the prime shipments.&nbsp; Also have a batch of 50 1/32 to 1/8" mostly ball end mills, "slightly used" due Monday, and the 1/8"/3mm 7328 cast acrylic is already here for the lithophane party.

Thinking of trying a rotated array of gearotic gears next, just for fun.

Kirk

PS: searching for how to photograph engravings gives many hits on how to make them but nothing on how to actually take a decent picture.&nbsp; This one sparkles and the effect changes with the viewing angle
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