Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Files, photos and discusions on Tickers and kinetic devices.
Kineticrazy
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

Ah, I see. I imagine the 4 lb. spring would make things get moving pretty quick. I accidentally bought a 4.5 lb. constant force (not torque) spring the other day. I have been wondering if it would work. I'm glad to hear yours does. I'll have to draw mine out it's 40" length to use it though. I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate it into a design. I imagine something like hiding the coiled end on a spool behind a faux flower pot (flat against the wall) and building a hollow flower stem to hide the rest of the spring,then a flower designed wheel like "Zinnia"on top. I'd wind a string on the Zinnia spool and attach it to the free end of the spring.

Or maybe the tail of some creature.

It's amazing once these machines get in your head, how much time you spend thinking about them ! :D
Last edited by Kineticrazy on Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by ArtF »

The original bat used a constant force spring, I thought it was constant torque, so I
spooled it that way. Worked fine.. but the guys at Vulcan spring told me it was wrong and
may wear out prematurely

Art
Kineticrazy
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

That's interesting. The spring I bought is rated at 25,000 uses as compared to constant torque springs rated at 2500. I wonder how much it will be affected? Did you back wind your spring, or wind in the springs natural direction? Had you noticed a difference in lifespan on your creation?

I would love to be able to wind it, it being compact really leaves a lot of options.

I hope you don't mind the questions Art, I appreciate your time.

Eric

This spring is a bit of a monster :o

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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by ArtF »

Wow, thats quite a spring. I have a couple similar.. but mine of that size are way more than 4 lbs..

I did back roll it, it worked fine in the original bat. But the springs Im using are much smaller. The spring
Im using sits on a 3/4" thick spool. Yours looks to be 2" thick or so.. How hard is it to roll off the spool?
Does it feel like 4lbs or much more? I have a couple that size and I can barely unroll the things..

Art
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

If the seller can be trusted ??? it's 4.3 pounds, and an inch and a quarter wide. I can retract it, but it's my first 4 lb. spring so I have nothing to compare it to. I will test it with a known weight when I get a chance. It seems like it wont like being back wound.

heres the link on e-bay. He's got one more for sale...the price was right anyway...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Constant-Force-Spring-48-L-X-1-25-W-25000-Cycle-Life-4-37lbs/291898742447?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38530%26meid%3Dedb1d654c1b14e6e8d7d8ca2a0b06e23%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D311745280230
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by ArtF »

It could very well be, Im no expert on springs. The one I used was only 3/4" wide or so in the original,
the spring Im using now is quite easy to roll, and does seem to have about 4lbs of torque, though I
have never measured it.

  I'll make sure to do a section on these springs when I finally get to a video on the bat mechanism
...when it works. :)

Art
Kineticrazy
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

Some spring info Mark had posted earlier, suggested by Clayton Boyer to power "Zinnia". A 1 lb. pull.

http://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=A%203x51-20006
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Dan Mauch »

  One thing that I found was that 5mm acrylic dogs and parts seem to have less drag than wood. My version of zinna runs for  14:57 minutes. I was surprised by how much better the plastic parts performed over the wood.
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by ArtF »

Hi Guys:

Just posted a video of the new module simulating a proposed vane shape.. This shows how you can manipulate the speeds between them and kinda looks like what Ive been aiming for. The shapes were dxf's..

Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbXJ3Zw ... e=youtu.be

and another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkT3JidkmLM
Last edited by ArtF on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kineticrazy
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

Dan,
  The friction reduction you've found, I'm trying to picture exactly where the friction occurs. Is it the pin passing over your plastic pawls that flows more smoothly?

Art,
  You've got a handle on the science behind these things, I wanted to ask you about something I've noticed. I was experimenting with trying to increase the number of rotations in my engine. I added magnets to increase the time power is supplied to my outer wheel. To my surprise I had no improvement. It seems that one pound of force produces the same number of turns, no matter how long that force is applied. Do you agree with my finding? This would suggest adding weight is possibly my solution, sadly my ratchet and pawl design doesn't like additional weight, and wont release on the back swing.
  I read an earlier post you made concerning flywheel radius (larger radius, slower rotation), and am going to experiment in that direction.

I plan on using David Roy's pawl and pins design in the future, but am trying to get the most out of my current project. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to chime in !

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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

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Hi Eric:

  Magnets will add nothing typically to rotation. As you approach a magnet, it does pull, but as you leave it
an exactly equal amount of energy is subtracted. Magnets will never give you energy, BUT they can influence the
non-intuitive motions of connected vanes etc.. which we'll discuss soon on release of kinetics.

  Your rotation speed typically in a vane system is a result of angular inertia and thrust of the spring. This inertia is a combination of the weight of the wheel and the centering placement of that weight.

  Gravity cares not a whit if you weight a ton, or an ounce. It will affect you the same. BUT, it matters if that ton or ounce is off center, as it does in all pendulums and most vanes. You will find that no matter what you do in terms of weight and balance, your time will be mostly the same, but your speed will vary. As a mass becomes more off center from its pivot the inertia increases by the square of the distance. Inertia is the reluctance to turn, but also the reluctance to slow.  In other words its a measure of how much energy it will take to change the rotation speed. So lets say your vanes do 4 rotations in 15 seconds, then slows to a stop. In an effort to increase that time, you increase the mass so it slows down due to increased inertia. What you'll find if you slow it down by half, if that you'll do 2 rotations, but it will still take 15 seconds. Worse yet, if you off center the mass in that effort to get it slower, the gravitic losses will increase. It will begin to act like a pendulum and youll get no full rotations, but the time will exasperatingly remain about the same.  A pendulum 36" long will take a second to swing a cycle,
and it doesn't matter if you use a car as a bob, or a car battery, or a feather.

  Now we all want the vanes to be off center masses, we typically need that swing at the end, we know it will start from near the top, and swing down to the bottom with kinetic power equal to its mass properties, but its a balance. Too much and the vane losses any real speed.. so finding that balance is an important part of the vanes you choose, the speed due to inertia, and the time due to the laws of gravity are intrinsic in how you design the arms, as it impacts heavily on the visual interferance
components of the design. As you can imagine, two cool looking vanes turning too fast no longer look cool. Too slow and the same thing happens. Its a range of end speeds one wants to compliment the visual elements.

    Now Im one that finds it very hard to imagine effects such as these. How arms will look as they pass each other can
actually be considered as a frequency equation and based on human perception times, something Ill be investigating in the future, but I digest ( breakfast ). :-)

    To increase the number of rotations, assuming you don't have too much friction in bearings and such, requires
either lowering the weight of the vanes ( though total time of rotations will stay near identical) or adding power by
increasing spring or weight, which will also increase end run time of the cycle ( and lower total run time of the device. )

So its all a balance. Not a very intuitive one, but a balance none the less. The more you understand about angular
momentum, inertia and mass, the more intuitive it becomes.

  In the new module, ( weeks away or less I hope), you can specify a material ( like 1/4 plywood, or 1/2" steel..etc...)
to get an idea as to how they differ. You can drag center of mass to a new location to observe the effects that creates
in terms of total time and speed. I did this that way to try to create not only a sense of realism, but to try to educate
on how all these things combine to control your sculpture.  I will be adding magnets and such so you can observe
how no matter how clever you consider yourself you just cannot get energy from them. Ill be allowing dxf's of various
shapes, sizes, materials and properties to be used with as realistic a gravity simulation as my talents allow me to make.

    I'm doing all this because I too find it hard to think in 4th dimension space. Considering time isn't something humans
do well except those very lucky artistic types I admire so much. So soon you can play with all these factors to try to
imagine how to get more run-time and how to make that run-time not go too fast, or too slow for your design.

  I cant promise reality, its the nature of simulations that you get only so close, but I think such a tool is probably
very valuable to others who want to be as artistic as possible but just cant imagine what monarch will look like
till it spins.

Long answer I know, but in summary, you can slow your vanes, or speed them up with mass manipulation, but total run-time will be much the same unless you increase power. Or so the numbers tell me, they never lie, but I often misunderstand what they say. :)

Art



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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

Art,
  Excellent response! Very informative. I do want to explain that I did not add magnets thinking they would pull my vanes or wheel, but the added magnets were there to keep the pawl in the up position for a longer duration, allowing for a longer push.

Man, it is difficult describing these things  ;D

I am very happy with your teachings, Obi-Wan. I shall seek a balance within the force !!!

Not yet a Jedi,

Eric
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by ArtF »

Eric:

Sorry I misunderstood. Its a common discussion in many places on using magnets to add speeds and such. :)
And yes, these are all really hard to describe things.

Art
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

Post by Kineticrazy »

Art,
  I did not want you thinking I was a "free energy" nut  :P

In the words of a movie astronaut recently stranded on Mars...."You scienced the shit out of it!"
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Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer

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lol.. there's worse types of nuts about..


Art
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