Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

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Richard Cullin
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by Richard Cullin »

are you The Richard Cullin of woodworki ng fame far and wide over here?


no my skill set is in in IT

art love the galvo progress
Just finally got Auggie driving a galvo cube. Seems to run up to 100K steps per second
is that anywhere close to being able to get a POV effect ?
I have been thinking it would be nice to do a POV 300x300 pixel raster display machine .
I have bread boarded a pic based step/dir to dac converter
the step rate is possible into the megabit/sec rate and the 12bit dac is updated every 150uS
I have not gone any further , still pondering the feasibility

the questions I struggle with are
is 12bit dac adequate resolution ?
the cheap ebay galvos have specs that say 20khz pps , what does that even mean ?

is the auggie/pokeys max step rate ever going to be enough ?
just how fast would it need to be to get a POV effect ?

the output of my converter is 0 to 5v  the galvos seem to use -5 to 5v
would that be an issue








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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

Richard:

  Ive been collecting parts for this for a couple years, Im just starting to put it
all together, and Ill probably do a video on it if it all works out, just to save anyone else time that comes behind me, its a lot to figure out as information is hard to come by.

  My galvos, like many you find on ebay from marking heads ( Cambridge scanners )
are pretty quick, I think they were rated at 50K points per second. Im sending more than that , about 100K per second. Mine take +-10volts to work, so Im using a board
called an armfly dac. ( about $35 ) It takes 3.3 volts from my arduino DUE for power, and 40mhz spi to set the dual dac. It puts out dual +- 10 volts, so 1 board will feed 2 galvos. Clever little board even makes the +-10 supplies on its own.

  The CNC57 then, just feeds step/dir signals to the DUE, which then sets the
DAC from interrupts on the step pins. The armfly is 16 bit dac's, so I get 65535 steps
for total field width. That seems too high a res, so Im counting by 2's, making it
really 32767 for width of field. Ive also programmed the arduino to clip at 0 and full count, and put out a home switch signal at any attempt to go below a count of
zero. This makes the CNC57 run fine on its homing routines and the two mirrors
now behave just like any cnc table's axis X/Y drives.

  If your interested in POV, this settup would work for mirror motion, but youd need software to drive them, Auggie couldnt. Auggie relies on the step/dir paradigm, it cant send analogue data values serially, and if it could it would then need a blanking setup as well.

  When done as step/dir, Auggie can use the laser as a normal one, so photo
engraving should be possible with the standard 1ms update rate. The 1ms
laser power loop is important to speed, if you cross the field in .3 seconds
during a photo engraving, thats only 330ms, so 330 power levels from the laser.

  So most of the time one would want to take at least 1 second per raster, for 
1000 power levels of resolution per scan line. I figure most of my time saving
from galvo will be in the acceleration and deceleration removal as the mirrors
dont seem to require any, constant speed is possible on even small curves and corners.

    PPS Speed:  The meaning of PPS is really loose I find. Galvo's it turns out have small angle design or large angle design. If large angle at 30KPS, it means you can virtually send it any ADC count, no matter how different from the previous one and it will move fast enough to do 30K of them per second.

  Mine are very good quality , but I cant do that,  I tried it and the cube got noisy as hell as it pinged around so fast you couldnt see it move. But even if I wanted to use
it that way, it would be a fair amount of work to write software to make it go as youd
have to send an analogue word for each dac for each step. 

  This is why I made the DUE run as a step/dir driver does, simply counting step pulses and updateing the dac when it sees a difference from last dac setting. The DUE
is 84Mhz and seems to be able to do the interrupts at about 100k or so without locking up due to ISR latency.

  So, with 32768 positions from left to right, the pokeys needs to put out
only 32Khz to get a 1 second field sweep, so at 100khz , its about .3 seconds in
theory for the field width and height. If Im lucky with my lens, I may get
300mm width, so res would be 300/32767 so about .009 mm per step. Smaller
lens fields get ridiculous in resolution per step.

  Speed is all about final field size if using it for laser burning. This is probably fast
enough for a sweet engraver, but for POV I  dont think so. The DUE and armfly would work OK I think, but youd have to send it a data frame then tell it to repeat the frame at full speed, then POV wouldnt be an issue.

  Anyway, just a few considerations. Im now waiting for new gold mirrors, my cube was yag and has the wrong mirror type. Then it will be onto the F-theta issue. Theres still a lot of bumps on my road yet I think. :)

Art




 

 
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

>>300x300 pixel raster display machine

  If you wish to raster a 300x300 display for POV, I think youd need to use one galvo,
and one polygon mirror for speed. Sweep the raster with the polygon mirror and control only 1 axis with a  galvo. (But that would take real high speed processing.. in the mhz, Raspberry PI maybe? )

Art
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

Richard:

  Heres a photo of the galvo hookup, you can see an Arduino DUE, and just above it an
armfly DAC board. The small chip under the DUE is just a level shifter to match the step/dir voltage levels from the CNC57 to the DUE.

Art
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Richard Cullin
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by Richard Cullin »


thank for the info art ,  PPS now I understand a little bit more
i'm thinking the beam spread of a diode laser would make a galvo
engraver impractical but it would be nice and quiet .

one polygon mirror for speed
yes that makes perfect sense . I have one recovered from a old laser printer , I will spin it up and see how well it reflects a blue laser.

when I say 300 pixels I really meant mono bmp style , laser on or off .
if I preprocess the image and store it in progmem I think it's doable with an 8bit micro.
a constant raster from a rotating mirror cuts the processing load to a manageable level.
its headed me off in a different direction.
armfly dac  , google has very little to say about them / or where to get one . do you have a link ?



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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

Hi Richard:

  Heres a link to a 0-5 volt armfly dac, they sell +-10 as well.

http://forum.armfly.com/forum.php?mod=v ... d&tid=2501

Focus is always an issue with galvos because of the long focal distance.
LED lasers are harder to focus due to shape considerations. Co2 has a
TEM0 beam (gaussian point source) or close to it so focus is easier,
though even with Co2 distance of focus is a limiting factor for sure. Longer the distance the larger the focal spot unless youve spent a great deal on the lens.

  There seem to be many many variables to worry about when trying to
make a galvo type machine, Im pretty sure Ive only gotten to half
so far. Ill keep you tuned. :)

Art
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by doc_here_ »

ArtF wrote: Hi Doc:

  As previous letters show, you do need motor drivers to run from auggie.
I know its a bit daunting to get into such rebuilds, good thing is its easier than
youd think looking at all the wires..  

Heres a vexx file showing the general wiring outline of how it all works. There
isnt much to hook up, the diagram shows the main things, laser power, motor hookup..etc. Of course proper ground wires and such are needed, but this is
a general diagram of how to make things work from a cnc57 to Auggie.

(I just recieved 2 new cnc57's as Im about to hook up a new laser with one
over the next couple weeks. Its a good time for you to be hooking up a laser
and asking questions as my multitasking ways have led me back to auggie
and vexx for the next few months work.)

Yell as you have questions,
Art

Well, well, dear me Art, which letters would those be?
When I first sent you a message about advice re my Chinese laser you replied
?When it comes to your K40, theres a topic thread on converting one, but you 'd need a Pokeys57CNC
board to run it in Gearotic. ( Auggie is the laser controller in Gearotic).  Unfortunatley it woudl mean some electronics to do the conversion, it requires the pokeys but also a transistor to swap a voltage as I recall. There is a few people that have done it with a K40 and there is a wiring diagram there as well if you decide
to go that way. Auggie makes a K40 into a cnc laser and adds variable power photo or depth engraving. Youll see examples on the forum.?

Sorry but I don?t see anything about needing to buy stepper drivers in there.

Or was it in the Only other reply that you have sent which was to tell me that I could source a pokeys in some company in Florida, no company name just :
?Im surprised they wont ship to Aussie.. You may want to search for dealers, there is one in Florida, they may ship your way..?
Don?t see the answer you say you sent there either?

Or the unanswered question that I asked about importing a picture of an escapement?

Or the follow up letter I sent you in December that you also didn?t reply to asking about your comment
?When it comes to your K40, theres a topic thread on converting one, but you 'd need a Pokeys57CNC
board to run it in Gearotic.?

I also sent one of a similar nature to YaNvrNo and again, no reply.

So please Art, before you try to make Me look stupid on your forum by leading with ?As previous letters show...? as tho I?m too stupid to listen to what you?ve already told me, please, show me these letters that you supposedly sent.
I?m sorry mate but I stand by my comments that you sent me down a very expensive rabbit hole and I can see no reason to be pleased with such bad advice especially considering that the cost of your program and the cost of the pokeys 57cnc with shipping, I could have just simply gone out and bought a bigger and better laser and not be still sitting here with an expensive piece of rubbish and some bloke on the wrong side of the world trying to score points off me and make himself look big and smart and me small and stupid.
And yes, I expect you won?t dare to put this up on the site for long
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

Doc:

>>And yes, I expect you won?t dare to put this up on the site for long

  Actually, I'll probably leave it up as an example of what to do if your angry for whatever reason around here.  I pretty much answer every letter I get, and when the answer doesnt contain what a person needs I expect them to be part of a conversation to get them to where they need to be. Im really am sorry though that you think I was trying to make you look stupid, nothing could be further from the case.

    Im usually accused more of answering too much than too little. Doc, people come in
all kinds of experience levels with all kinds of technologies. Its impossible to tell from
a question as to what level of help a person wants. Ive had people ask a single question and
no responce till they ask a question about a working system, to those that ask questions
for months on all sorts of topics. If you have a general question about how something works
youll generally get an answer thats more general in nature. If specific, youll typically
get a specific answer or at least the best advice we here can give.

  I wouldnt begin to give advice on getting something to Australia for example, as I live in
Canada and have no such knowledge. Im unaware if shipping is easier from the USA or Europe. I have no stake in PoKeys, I simply develop a program that uses one.

>>Sorry but I don?t see anything about needing to buy stepper drivers in there.

  It wasnt there specifically, but if asked the question anyone, including myself, would
have made it clear. Its a fair point that to a person who has never done such a conversion
the knowledge a stepper driver would be required wouldnt be known, but to the majority
of people that attempt such a thing a general knowledge of cnc and motors is usually a
given. It isnt needed, but its usually assumed in a case where someone is brave enough
to rewire a laser. Some lasers, for example, have stepper drivers already bolted in their cases, others have their drivers on the control boards in which case they need to be replaced with new ones.
 
>>Or the unanswered question that I asked about importing a picture of an escapement?

  This question was answered as I recall, but Ill have to look back, I do a lot of email corespondance. I may have committed the sin of hitting reply rather than a web link to the
question, in such cases an answer can be lost, but I never mind getting a followup or a letter
from a person asking for a better responce, or a notification that they never got one.

  Im not sure if you anger is one born of exasperation with what your facing to do an upgrade,
or the lack of responce you feel you've had. Email and forums can be the worst form of communication, Ive been doing this for almost 20 years and answered tens of thousands
of support questions for Mach3 and Gearotic. Sometimes, they get taken wrongly, it can be cultural, or language, or even just due to exasperation or false image of responce.

  I take no offense, I never do from email, lessons long learned. If you wish to complete a
K40 moficiation to variable power engraving with auggie, send me a letter off this forum at support@gearotic.com ,Im happy to help down to any specific level you wish.

You may want to start a conversation more detailed so you know exactly what you need to do. A stepper driver isnt an expensive thing these days, its goes along with the detrius of connectors, wiring harnesses and all the little things one needs to do to modify something like a K40. Stepper drivers are pretty easy things to get to Australia.

  When on any forum you dont get a responce, dont let it fester , ask again, or be more specific, as I say, we're usually happy to get right down to what color wire should go
where if we can.

>>some bloke on the wrong side of the world trying to score points off me and make himself look big and smart and me small and stupid.

  Absolutely none of this is about smart or dumb, big or large, when it comes to playing with lasers of any type there isnt a lot of information out there.  I might mention that it would be kinda unimportant if half the planet went around thinking an unknown person named "doc" in australia wasnt aware of the esoterics of motor drivers in a laser, let alone the few who visit here. Hardly a case of laughing at a rube.  Auggie is a free program, I offer it free for people at any level to experiment with and drive any type of machine that may come into their heads. I support it because those that use it appreciate it and because its a fun hobby. :) . 

  I suspect , Doc, we simply have crossed wires and a breakdown of communication, email me, tell me where you are in your project if youd like to continue, and what step youd like to do to get started, youve nothing to lose and may end up where you wanted to be all along.

Art




 
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by tweakie »

Hi Phil,

I started out on the CNC adventure trail some 10 or so years ago, knowing nothing about CNC, and Art has personally (via. the various forums) helped me out at every stage of the way.

I am not a particularly quick learner but I research everything, as fully as I can, before proceeding in any new direction and Auggie was no exception. I spent a good many hours, if not days, reading through this and other linked data / forums etc. before even considering the purchase of a 57CNC.

As I think we have all discovered CNC is not ?Plug?n?Play?, it can require the use of many skills and much knowledge that we don?t actually have. Forums, to a certain extent, can fill the knowledge gap and also educate us in the development of our skills but the required information is not always that easy for us to find. On this forum alone, Art has provided outstanding help and assistance to any that need it ? just asking a simple question usually brings far more information than is actually needed.

As for the proverbial ?Rabbit-Hole? - you are quite correct in that it is an expensive (or a least ?not without cost?) route which has been shown to you but you must remember that the decision to actually go down the rabbit-hole is yours and yours alone.

Personally, from my own experience here, I think that going with the 57CNC (and all the associated items that may be required) is the right decision for you to take and once you see for yourself the results that you can obtain using Auggie it will make it all worth while.

Tweakie.
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by TOTALLYRC »

To add to the two posts above, if they can't help you I am sure that either myself or one of the other people on this or many other forums will help.
Ask specific questions if you can and if not ask questions anyway and we will all try to get you where you need to be going.
If you search the many forums for any one of our screen names you will see that we all have a history of helping out and NOT trying to make people look like fools. Since there is no way to read facial expressions or body language or facial expressions a lot of the meaning can get lost or misinterpreted.

Here is to another great day of sinking more time and money into my Favorite winter hobby! CNC

Mike
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by ArtF »

Thanks Guys,

  I suspect he speaks from frustration, and we've all been there. Im betting we can
get his laser running if Doc's up for the challenge. I suggest first we get the X/Y stage
running in Auggie, then worry about the laser after, its only a pwm problem to get
running once the axis motors are good to go.

Art
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by TOTALLYRC »

Sounds like a plan.


Mike
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by BobL »

Couldn't agree with you more Art, it is always difficult to know the levels of knowledge from most questions, I too fall in that rut from time to time when attempting to answer questions. Anyhow, my suggestion to Doc is to take on this challenge to convert is K40 to work with Auggie, then see if he stills feels the same once its all done.

Cheers
Bob
:)
Gearotic Motion
Bob
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Re: Help needed converting a 40w Chinese Laser with MS10105 board to cnc57 board

Post by BobbyW »

ArtF wrote: Thanks Guys,
  I suspect he speaks from frustration, and we've all been there. Im betting we can
get his laser running if Doc's up for the challenge.

Art
I'm totaly agree with you @Art . Now i have free time and i start seriously to finish my laser , is better to read first all topics in forum , like that i can avoid unnecessary questions and... i can not stop myself to respond on that. About you , i send you some time ago one single email and some days later i receive the forum accession with all stuff and greetings. I didn't even buy a license to say " was a moral obligation for you " , was just because are nice  but i think i will buy one to support you work , you deserve it & thank you for that.
//~~~~~~~~~~~~
And about arrogance i think @Doc don't have a reference on that . As example , i buy pokeys57CNC and i did't know in that time , auggie can generate gcode for this interface (like i say my CNC knowledge is very limited) so searching on google, i look on one software LightBurn , i create a topic and i ask nice the owner ( If i buy a license you can made a support communication for pokeys57CNC ? Or let me a way to do myself. ) and he respond something like (we are so high now and we don't care on cheap interfaces) . After my response i got banned . Anyway , he piss me off after that and i made some research about his software , i don't use it , was just for my fun . And during my life i made some powerful friends and very skilled . I ask some of them about and i found alot of " nasty " things in his software (with some friends help) like open sources stolen , collecting some private data from you PC, stuffs like that. Whatever i was able to made a communication with pokeys57CNC and to extend my trial period to finish my research . After i discover Auggie was able to generate GCODE , i delete LightBurn and trow on my recycle .

At the end , like i say , @Doc don't have the reference of what's mean ignorance.
Some print screens below of my experience . :-\
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